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    Home Unlabelled Age of Empires II Civilization Match-up Discussion Round 11 Week 14: Celts vs Saracens

    Age of Empires II Civilization Match-up Discussion Round 11 Week 14: Celts vs Saracens

    April 14, 2021

    Age of Empires II Civilization Match-up Discussion Round 11 Week 14: Celts vs Saracens

    Civilization Match-up Discussion Round 11 Week 14: Celts vs Saracens

    Posted: 14 Apr 2021 12:14 AM PDT

    Fun fact, these two civs represented half of the Siege Onager civs back in AoK (alongside Mongols and Teutons)

    ​

    Hello and welcome back for another Age of Empires 2 civilization match up discussion! This is a series where we discuss the various advantages, disadvantages, and quirks found within the numerous match ups of the game. The goal is to collectively gain a deeper understanding of how two civilizations interact with each other in a variety of different settings. Feel free to ask questions, pose strategies, or provide insight on how the two civilizations in question interact with each other on any map type and game mode. This is not limited to 1v1 either. Feel free to discuss how the civilizations compare in team games as well! So long as you are talking about how the two civilizations interact, anything is fair game! Last week we discussed the Magyars vs Vietnamese, and next up is the Celts vs Saracens!

    ​

    Celts: Infantry and Siege civilization

    • Infantry move +15% faster (starting in Feudal Age)
    • Lumberjacks work +15% faster
    • Siege Weapons fire +25% faster
    • Will always control sheep so long as it is within a Celt unit's LoS
    • TEAM BONUS: Siege Workshops work +20% faster
    • Unique Unit: Woad Raider (Powerful, fast-moving infantry)
    • Castle Age Unique Tech: Stronghold (Castles and towers fire +25% faster)
    • Imperial Age Unique Tech: Furor Celtica (Siege Workshop units +40% hp)

    ​

    Saracens: Camel and Naval civilization

    • Market trade cost is only 5%; Markets cost -100w
    • Transport Ships x2 hp; +5 carry capacity
    • Galleys attack +25% faster
    • Camel units +10 hp
    • Team Bonus: Foot archers +2 attack vs buildings
    • Unique Unit: Mameluke (Camel with short-ranged melee attack)
    • Castle Age Unique Tech: Madrasah (Monks return 33% of their cost when killed)
    • Imperial Age Unique Tech: Zealotry (Camels +20 hp)

    ​

    Below are some match up-specific talking points to get you all started. These are just to give people ideas, you do not need to address them specifically if you do not want to!

    • Okay, so for 1v1 Arabia, both of these civs seem to exist at the edge between high tier and mid tier. Celts have an excellent economy, strong Feudal Age, excellent siege, but absolutely awful archers and underwhelming cavalry. Saracens, meanwhile, lack the consistent economic power of Celts, but do nonetheless have their powerful Markets to help close that cap. Their military options are quite diverse as well, as they have all important units except cavaliers and halberdiers. Which do you favor?
    • For closed maps... it's actually quite a similar story as on Arabia - both civs are in a hazy region between high and mid tier. Celts can again leverage their excellent eco, as well as their famous infantry + siege lategame combo, but really struggle militarily before they can get that up and running. Saracens, meanwhile, have plenty of solid options for most situations (particularly gunpowder in this case), but lack that consistent midgame economy to get them to their expensive armies. Which civ do you prefer here?

    Thanks as always for participating! Next week we will continue our discussions with the Aztecs vs Teutons. Hope to see you there! :)

    ​

    Previous discussions: Part 1 Part 2 Part 3

    submitted by /u/OrnLu528
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    Caught this Burgundian castle frozen in the destruction sequence when the enemy resigned! Look at that detail on the roof beams!

    Posted: 14 Apr 2021 04:02 AM PDT

    Ever load into a 1v1 ranked game and find you have NO OPPONENT?

    Posted: 13 Apr 2021 08:44 PM PDT

    Is it possible someone has an in with PayPal to help legendary AoE2 player ACCM with unfair account judgments?

    Posted: 14 Apr 2021 02:00 AM PDT

    Vietnamese pro AoE2 player ACCM was hit by PayPal with a "permanent account restriction" yesterday for no reason. As many know, he is a model of sportsmanship and unequivocally a positive figure in the Age community.

    For those interested, here is the content of the notices he received from PayPal (from his Twitter). TLDR there is zero transparency behind PayPal's decision:

    Email 1

    Email 2

    It seems at first glance the situation is hopeless due to the lack of transparency, lack of an appeals process...

    ...However, is there any possibility of reaching someone, perhaps via r/aoe2, with connections that could possibly help ACCM get this straightened out?

    ACCM's Twitter handle is @IamACCM if anybody sees this and wants to drop a word of encouragement. It can't be easy to have your financial life turned upside down in a day... even for such a good sport as ACCM.

    Edit: fixed image link

    submitted by /u/rartrarr
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    When the bars finally open!

    Posted: 13 Apr 2021 05:21 PM PDT

    ACCM paypal account revoked unfairly - can you help?

    Posted: 14 Apr 2021 02:27 AM PDT

    Hey guys, this is an unusual post for this subreddit and I hope it is not contravening any rules but here's what you can do to help a really unpleasant situation.

    ACCM's paypal account, which is his livelihood, has been banned without any explanation. And it looks like customer support is not helpful. I'm gonna assume that they are pro-actively banning accounts in Asia to curb scammer activity - accounts that receive many small $ transfers from the West and ACCM has been unfairly and wrongly targeted by this half-baked idea.

    He won't be able to do streaming for a living as Paypal is the only reliable payment system in this part of the world.

    Can the AoE2 community write to Paypal to revoke his ban by tweeting or emailing them?Here are some contacts:

    Twitter
    https://twitter.com/AskPayPal
    https://twitter.com/paypal
    https://twitter.com/Dan_Schulman (Paypal CEO)

    Email
    Katherine Hutchison (Director of Risk Management, Paypal) - [khutchison@paypal.com](mailto:khutchison@paypal.com)
    Aaron Karczmer (Chief Risk and Compliance Officer, Paypal) - [akarczmer@paypal.com](mailto:akarczmer@paypal.com)
    Dan Schulman (Boss man) - [dan.schulman@paypal.com](mailto:dan.schulman@paypal.com)

    This is ACCM's original post on twitter about the ban - https://twitter.com/IamACCM/status/1382029367065268224

    Thank you!

    submitted by /u/geldbeutel
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    Upcoming Balance Changes! (feat. Burgundian and Sicilian buffs)

    Posted: 14 Apr 2021 12:32 AM PDT

    April Update #47260 Balance Changes [BETA]

    Posted: 13 Apr 2021 10:28 PM PDT

    Mods delete if this isn't allowed.

    Since the April update has been made publicly available in beta format for download, I thought I'd try my hand at identifying some of the changes. I'm not good at finding these usually and I assume there are many more I'm unaware of. These are the major civilisation changes I've noticed. They say an official list of changes will come. Furthermore, these are the beta balance changes, the real ones may still change.

    Burgundians:

    Economic Upgrades available one age earlier and cost -50% food

    Vineyards conversion ratio of food to gold down from 100% to 50%

    Cumans:

    Palisade Walls reduced from +50% to +33% HP.

    Franks:

    Their unique technologies have had their ages swapped, costs adjusted accordingly

    Bearded Axe (300f, 300g)

    Chivalry (600w, 500g)

    Incas:

    Villagers affected by blacksmith upgrades starting Castle Age

    Malay:

    Fish Traps provide 3x food instead of infinite.

    Battle Elephants now cost -30% in Castle, -40% in Imperial (72f and 42g). (They still only have +1/+1 at blacksmith)

    Karambit Warrior +1 base attack to (7/8), Elite has also gained +1 melee armor

    Sicilians:

    First Crusade (units are more resistant to converions) was added to the tech

    Donjon stone cost reduced from 200 to 175 stone

    Serjeant base armor increased from 1/1 to 2/2 in Feudal

    Elite Serjeant HP up from 75 to 85

    ​

    Cannon Galleon upgrade no longer exists. The unit is available immediately after researching chemistry

    Ornlu has done an overview probably far more in-depth than mine was.
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fzzH6V4lZWg&ab_channel=OrnlutheWolf-AgeofEmpires2

    submitted by /u/VIFASIS
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    i know the quality is eye cancer but it was beautiful

    Posted: 13 Apr 2021 07:54 AM PDT

    Five new maps incoming!

    Posted: 14 Apr 2021 12:43 AM PDT

    Along with the new balance changes, the April preview build also has five new maps in the random map selection screen:

    Volcanic Island: Players start with wide-open bases on a large, elevated island shared by all players. All the wood is in a big clump in the middle. Players have standard starting food and two six-tile golds but no stone. Instead, the stone is scattered on tiny islands of lands in a mass of shallows ringing the outer edges of the map. The water also has fish.

    Team Moats: Basically Arabia except each team has a moat around its base with only a few shallow crossings. Inside the moat you only have 4 tiles each of gold and stone as well as a few tiny woodlines. Will probably play similar to Hill Fort.

    Crater: Players start inside a big featureless crater and have tons of stone and gold around their TC, but almost all the wood is ringing the outer edges of the crater. Standard food, and the middle of the crater has all the relics. Will be an insanely open and aggressive map.

    Crossroads: Weird looking map; players start on the fringes while the middle has big circular forests that have unbuildable terrain passing through them. Gold and stone are in the center and around the outside. At the outermost edge is multiple bodies of water.

    Michi: Just like the fan map, it's a hyper-boomy map where players are initially separated by an impassable forest they need to chop their way through.

    submitted by /u/MadMagyars
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    Anyone know who this player is? Insane rating gains over last 2 months and great to see a UK player pushing deep into the top 100

    Posted: 14 Apr 2021 03:31 AM PDT

    No Winged Hussars arrived - 4 Reasons the Poles cause problems for a new DLC

    Posted: 14 Apr 2021 03:20 AM PDT

    1) In the later game they are already represented by Lithuania. In 1385 the Grand Duke of Lithuania married the Queen of Poland and the two states were united under the Polish Lithuanian Union. This union endured until the end of the medieval period and beyond.

    2) In the early game they are already represented by the Slavs, the Poles being a fundamentally Slavic people (though admittedly boyars are the nobility of eastern slavs like the Kievan Rus)

    3) Polish 'winged hussars' are scarcely medieval. While there were 'hussar' units in Polish armies from 1503 onwards, it wasn't until the reforms of Stephen Bathory in 1570 that they really arrived. After all, the popular Sabaton song is about Vienna 1683.

    4) Even if you did include a Polish 'winged hussar' there is already more than one 'hussar' unit in the game. You have the scout line in the stable and the Magyar Huszar which is more in keeping with the time period and actually the inspiration for the later Polish 'winged hussars'.

    submitted by /u/Odysseus7754
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    The Dude is just wild.

    Posted: 13 Apr 2021 01:38 PM PDT

    This game is so wonderful, i can't put it into words. I was in a almost friendless part of my life. Then a bunch of 30+ acquaintances of mine started getting together around AoE2 at Sunday nights, and now we have a growing bond between us all.

    Posted: 14 Apr 2021 09:17 AM PDT

    On top of it, i'm one of the best players of our gang, and therefore it is being twice as fun to me. XD Greetings from Brazil to you all.

    submitted by /u/heitorrsa
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    Favorite Lingo in the AOE2 Community?

    Posted: 14 Apr 2021 05:44 AM PDT

    Here are mines:

    • mastapiece
    • #clearly
    • we take those
    • we win those
    • micro nerd
    • epic sax guy
    • daut princess
    • admiral jordan
    • MY TEAM... WHERES MY TEAM
    • titanic, no he titanic lalala lalalalalala....
    • t90farms
    • next lever
    • why don't we just auto everything? let's just auto micro, auto macro, auto-build...
    submitted by /u/Projeffboy
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    Never give up with Goths, even in a 2v1!

    Posted: 14 Apr 2021 03:41 AM PDT

    Goth spam is unreal, I found myself in a 2v1 situation after my teammate was wiped out. In the end the spam was too much for my opponents and I ended up winning the game!

    Here's the timeline: https://imgur.com/a/n1cQidd
    You can download the replay here: https://aoe.ms/replay/?gameId=83992396&profileId=4433790

    submitted by /u/BlahYourHamster
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    One of my favorite AoE facts: Camels actually counter Horses in real life cause horses hate the smell

    Posted: 13 Apr 2021 02:31 PM PDT

    Single-use techs? Make them repeatable

    Posted: 14 Apr 2021 02:18 AM PDT

    Single-use techs seems really lackluster for the most part. The devs seem to think so too, since they are slowly adding a permanent bonuses to them as well, so they are more akin to regular technologies (i.e. the Sicifilian First crusade is to give resistance to conversions in the next patch).

    I dare to say, it would be more interesting, if those techs ONLY gave you one-time bonus (so no permanent ones), but they could be researched again. For example, Burgundians would be able to convert their food to gold for powerspikes, or trade-in their villagers for Flemish militia as usual. Except, they could do so multiple times.

    This would be easily balanced by adjusting the price and lenghtening the research time, which would act as a "cooldown" for the techs. Maybe it will take 2 to 4 minutes to research, which would make them require a bit more skill to use, rather than just a one-time panic button. Did you scout your enemy's 7 stables? Well, better click up that Flemish militia tech and churn out shitton of villagers, before it gets through.

    Do you feel your enemy is getting ahead and huge attack is incoming? Or maybe you fell behind on military units? Click up that First crusade and pray to god it will finish in time.

    This could work also for the Vietnamese Paper money. Give it a longer cooldown and you basically have a relatively good trade (Wood and food for gold) every 5 or so minutes, let's say. Definitelly more usefull than one time bonus, which is really only good in team games.

    submitted by /u/Hrdina_Imperia
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    Post your "Low Elo Legend" stories!!

    Posted: 14 Apr 2021 02:50 AM PDT

    First of all I'm a low elo player 950-1100 range. I see all these funny t90 videos but I literally never run into any of this hilarious shit. It's kind of a bummer man.

    But tonight on Arena I had a real low elo legend sighting! 11

    Teutons (me) vs Mayans (them)

    I didn't finish the whole replay yet.... but opponent sends his 4th vill out immediately to build watch towers literally everywhere. Every res pile, every relic, everywhere. He lost at least two vills doing this one to me one to wolves.

    Then he literally started walling the map in half using houses barracks and archery ranges. Absolutely bisected the map. He was actually very fair with the resources he left me...

    Needless to say this didn't work. His uptime was super late. I didn't know why yet but I'm thinking "ok, he's mayans. Super late uptime he's probably got a million vills on stone so he's gonna start dropping castles everywhere. Nope. He dropped one but it turns out walling the arena in half just isn't a fast process.

    I went into full on castle drop defense mode. He killed a bunch of scouts while I was getting relics. Pikes and eagles everywhere. I was ready for it. But turns out they were just cover for the villagers making the house wall. He let me get my 4 relics and leave.

    By the time he was ready to respond to me trebing down his castle I had a small legion of siege onagers and champs waiting for him. Things went downhill quickly from there for him.

    I wanted to ask him if that ever works but just as mysteriously as he arrived he was gone before I could ask.

    I looked him up 1000 1v1 1270 team games... higher than I'd expect that from.

    Got any funny ones? Did they work?

    submitted by /u/Scoots88
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    Remove the Archer armor class from Mamelukes

    Posted: 14 Apr 2021 07:55 AM PDT

    Tl;dr: there are many sound reasons why Mamelukes should not be classified as archers, an unfortunate classification going all the way back to Age of Kings.

    • The Mameluke is the only archer whose main damage output is melee and not pierce; if this phrase seems oddly-worded, it is because two other archers- the Chu Ko Nu and Kipchak- deal zero melee damage with extra arrows, which is helpful against rams & siege towers (lol). This is a glaring exception to what should be a common-sense principle: archers should deal pierce damage. The only other similar exception to this rule I can think of is the BBT, which unlike the BBC and CG deals pierce damage instead of melee damage. However, this can be reconciled if you view the BBT as a tower, since all other Towers, Donjons, Castles, and Kreposts deal pierce damage. That the Mameluke deals melee damage despite being classified as an archer is counterintuitive and does not agree with how it plays in game.
    • This brings me to my next point: upgrades. Since Saracens have a full Blacksmith, I'll just list the first techs. Mamelukes are affected by Forging and Scale Barding, suggesting that the fact that they are camels is much more important than the fact that they are classfied as archers. Note also that Saracens receive Thumb Ring (they also have FU HCA) but that it does not affect Mamelukes! (By the way, the same is true for Ballistics and, if Mamelukes were classified as CA, it would probably be true for Parthian Tactics as well.) If Mamelukes were indeed archers, shouldn't they benefit from Thumb Ring? For that matter, shouldn't they be affected by Fletching, not Forging? That a unit classified as an Archer wouldn't be affected by Fletching screams that something is off. I think the devs have it right with upgrades but wrong with the armor class.
    • It's worth comparing the Mameluke to the Camel Archer. The armor classes are {UU, Camel, Mameluke, Archer} and {UU, Camel, Cav Archer, Archer}. But again, the upgrades tell the tale: Camel Archers are affected by Archer upgrades, whereas Mamelukes are not. The reason is clear: Camel Archers deal pierce damage, but Mamelukes deal melee damage. Berbers and Saracens each have a UT affecting Camels, a subclass of Cavalry. Yet again, we see that the fact that Mamelukes are Camels is much more fundamental than their classification as Archers.
    • Speaking of Berbers, there are a pair of reasons that were not present in AoK that make Mamelukes unnecessarily vulnerable in team games: Genitour and Imperial Skirmisher. Whether every civ deserves access to the Genitour or any non-Turkish civ deserves access to Imp Skirm because of teammates is another question. More relevant: why should any civ have access to a mounted unit that deals +5 bonus damage against Mamelukes (ditto for Imp Skirm, except for Turks)? Mamelukes have zero pierce armor and only three range: they are quite vulnerable to archer fire as-is. That they can be effectively countered by any civ in team games if an opponent is Berbers or Vietnamese because of a bizarre classification is unacceptable.
    • A somewhat-related point: as-is, Mamelukes have poor matchups against 2/3 of the main trash units. They slaugher Hussars and have a glass-cannon feel against Halbs (if you can kite them, you destroy them; if they get in close, they shred you), but are quite bad against Skirms. It's very unfortunate that one of the most expensive UUs has poor matchups against trash.
    • Lastly, while Mamelukes are the only mounted UU with a ranged attack, Throwing Axemen and Gbetos are similar infantry UU ranged units that are not classified as archers. To me, the comparison with the Axemen is most apt, as both are original AoK units. That is, the precedent for a ranged UU to not be classified as an archer goes back as far as the game itself. (Incidentally, ETA and EG have +1 range over their non-Elite versions, unlike the EM which like the base Mameluke only has a range of 3.)

    So what is to be done? One thing is clear: the Archer class must be removed. Possible armor classes include: {UU, Camel, Cavalry, Mameluke}, {UU, Camel, Mameluke}, or {UU, Camel, Cavalry}. Whether Mamelukes deserve their own armor class is another discussion (personally, I would prefer {UU, Camel, Cavalry}) but I think this would be a nice buff to Saracens without tinkering with the cost, range, or other stats. Mamelukes are sweet, more Mamelukes please!

    submitted by /u/ReachIsTheBestHalo
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    Burgundian cheaper eco techs: analysis

    Posted: 14 Apr 2021 09:14 AM PDT

    Who wins?

    Posted: 14 Apr 2021 03:46 AM PDT

    R.I.P Incas trush, you were great strat (Spoiler)

    Posted: 14 Apr 2021 06:31 AM PDT

    Worth playing only single player ?

    Posted: 13 Apr 2021 03:36 PM PDT

    Just wondering if the game is worth playing for single player only.

    Game has been in my steam library for years and I'm wondering if the campaign's alone would be worth the time investment required to learn such a seemingly complex game.

    I realise this is probably a biased place to post this lol but if anyone had any thoughts I'd love to hear them based on the fact I feel I'm significantly below average when it comes to RTS skills .

    Also is there any campaigns in particular you'd recommend playing first after the Scottish tutorial one and just in general which was your favourite?

    Finally im curious particularly if there are any other non competitive types like me who have any tips on how to improve at the single player aspect of the game as I'm sure it's much different than the meta associated with online play and I'm worried about getting disheartened if I suck so bad I fail them non stop.

    submitted by /u/greendigdiamonddog
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    Rejoice! The Inca fools finally must learn how to play a game like everybody else ��

    Posted: 14 Apr 2021 02:08 AM PDT

    New patch will reportedly remove vil blacksmith upgrades til Castle Age.

    Ahhhhhh....

    submitted by /u/Odysseus7754
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