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    Home Unlabelled Age of Empires II Civilization Match-up Discussion Round 13 Week 3: Koreans vs Mayans

    Age of Empires II Civilization Match-up Discussion Round 13 Week 3: Koreans vs Mayans

    October 13, 2021

    Age of Empires II Civilization Match-up Discussion Round 13 Week 3: Koreans vs Mayans

    Civilization Match-up Discussion Round 13 Week 3: Koreans vs Mayans

    Posted: 12 Oct 2021 09:28 PM PDT

    The classic clash of civs over Texas! (you get 100 OrnluBucksTM if you got that reference)

    ​

    Hello and welcome back for another Age of Empires 2 civilization match up discussion! This is a series where we discuss the various advantages, disadvantages, and quirks found within the numerous match ups of the game. The goal is to collectively gain a deeper understanding of how two civilizations interact with each other in a variety of different settings. Feel free to ask questions, pose strategies, or provide insight on how the two civilizations in question interact with each other on any map type and game mode. This is not limited to 1v1 either. Feel free to discuss how the civilizations compare in team games as well! So long as you are talking about how the two civilizations interact, anything is fair game! Last week we discussed the Bohemians vs Poles, and next up is the Koreans vs Mayans!

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    Koreans: Defensive and Naval civilization

    • Villagers +3 LoS
    • Stone miners work +20% faster
    • Tower upgrades free (BBT requires Chemistry)
    • Blacksmith archer armor upgrades free
    • Military units (except siege) costs -20% wood
    • TEAM BONUS: Mangonel minimum range reduced by 50%
    • Unique Unit: War Wagon (Chonky, expensive, cav archer)
    • Unique Unit: Turtle Ship (Chonky, expensive cannon ship)
    • Castle Age Unique Tech: Eupsong (Watch Towers, Guard Towers, and Keeps gain +2 range)
    • Imperial Age Unique Tech: Shinkichon (Mangonels gain +1 range)

    ​

    Mayans: Archer civilization

    • Start with +1 Villager, but -50f
    • Resources last +15% longer
    • Archers cost -10/20/30% in Feudal/Castle/Imperial Age
    • TEAM BONUS: Walls cost -50%
    • Unique Unit: Plumed Archer (Fast, tanky foot archer)
    • Castle Age Unique Tech: Hul'che Javelineers (Skirmishers throw a second projectile that deals 1 damage)
    • Imperial Age Unique Tech: El Dorado (A really buggy RPG campaign that was cut in DE Eagles gain +40 hp)

    ​

    Below are some match up-specific talking points to get you all started. These are just to give people ideas, you do not need to address them specifically if you do not want to!

    • One of the most popular civs vs one of the least popular lol. For 1v1 on open maps, Mayans have been among the very best since about 2001 - and not without good reason. They have 2 strong early game eco bonuses, as well as two distinct threats in eagles and archers. Koreans, meanwhile... haven't been quite as popular. That said, they did receive a good many buffs over the years. Do Koreans stand a chance against the Mayan early game now that they get free archer armor upgrades and their military wood discount?
    • On closed maps, this match up takes a bit of a different turn. Mayans can still snowball their way to victory with strong timings with Arbalests, Eagles, or Plumed Archers, but their lack of powerful late game options can leave them floundering on maps like Arena, BF, and Hideout. Koreans are pretty much the exact opposite - they lack any real eco bonus to get them in a powerful aggressive position, but they do have one of the single most terrifying late game armies in the game. Can Mayans pressure Koreans out of the game before they get flattened by Siege Onagers?
    • In team games, both of these civs are obviously far stronger on flank than in pocket. As to which is better - that will largely depend on the map. For Arabia the speed of Mayans makes them among the very best flank civs in the game, but they do notably fall off late game. Meanwhile, Koreans are going to be a bit slower to get going, but then possess one of the most powerful slow pushes in the late game. How do you see the team game dynamic working between these two civs?

    Thank you as always for participating! Next week we will continue our discussions with the Cumans vs Incas. Hope to see you there! :)

    ​

    Previous discussions: Part 1 Part 2 Part 3

    submitted by /u/OrnLu528
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    Inspired by a recent post here that made me laughed

    Posted: 13 Oct 2021 03:15 AM PDT

    My evening

    Posted: 12 Oct 2021 08:15 PM PDT

    Here's a big list of further campaigns to play after you've finished with all the official ones

    Posted: 13 Oct 2021 05:03 AM PDT

    Wrote this as a comment in response to a post here asking for more campaign content, but then thought it might be of use to others as well who're similarly hungry for such. There are TONS of excellent custom campaigns in the mod vault. Here's a list of names to look for from my own vault -

    Ottokar

    Dandolo

    Reconquista

    Valhalla's Edge

    The Imjin War

    Khubilai-Khan

    Princes of Russia

    The Last Romans

    Rise of the Khmer

    Struggle for Japan

    Arabian Conquests

    The Golden Horde

    The Jarls of Jelling

    Admiral Jang Bogo

    Three Kingdoms III

    1578 Perang Kastila

    Battle of Varna 1444

    The Battle of Sighnaq

    A Journey To The West

    Gwanggaeto the Great

    The Rise of Tamerlane

    1456 Seige of Belgrade

    Vytautus the Great EN

    Battle on the Neva River

    Tomislav King of Croatia

    Tomislav Supplement

    Battle of the Blue Waters

    Three Kingdoms Cao Cao

    Seljuk - Rise of an Empire

    Blood for the Serpent God

    Taejo of Joseon Yi Seonggye

    The Anarchy of King Stephen

    Three Kingdoms II Red Cliffs

    Khmer Kings of Old Cambodia

    Harald Hardrada (English Ver.)

    [Neky] Mehmed II the Conqueror

    [Neky] Samurai Invasion of Korea

    Francis Drake on the Spanish Main

    Finehair - The Conquest of Norway

    Fury The Legend of Mstislav the Bold

    Charles Martel - Majordom of Franks

    The Golden Horde II - The Last Khans

    Komnenos - the Byzantine Restoration

    Shimazu - Daimyo of the Nine Provinces

    Last Stand At Orkney - Definitive Edition

    Battle on the Kulikovo Field (English Ver.)

    Apranik - Last Warrior of the Ancient World

    Mehmeds Campaign Against Vlad the Impaler.

    [Neky] Manuel I Komnenos the Last Great of Rome

    ​

    Whew! Well there you go. That's about 50(!) custom campaigns and scenarios to have fun with even after you finish all the official ones. You can find them all just by searching for the name in the mod vault. And by the time you finish all that, there'll probably be a whole bunch more!

    submitted by /u/BendicantMias
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    Random question, Have you guys played Rise of Nations?

    Posted: 12 Oct 2021 10:57 PM PDT

    I just played RoN today after almost 10 years and I must say it's such a brilliant game. I didn't appreciate its mechanics and gameplay as a kid because I mostly played it as a city or should I say, nation builder. It's sad that it did not get the success it deserved. Even though it has aged very well, I wish we get a definitive edition for it, I know that's wishful thinking but even if we don't get a new game I will continue to revisit RoN.

    submitted by /u/Atharva_Nayak
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    Title

    Posted: 12 Oct 2021 10:51 AM PDT

    So I heard that we're documenting mangonel war crimes...

    Posted: 12 Oct 2021 10:34 AM PDT

    I think I need advice against the Mongols

    Posted: 12 Oct 2021 02:31 PM PDT

    Imagine if we made this the most upvoted post on r/aoe2 11 (T-West on The Curious History of the Most Upvoted Post on r/aoe2)

    Posted: 13 Oct 2021 05:13 AM PDT

    Grouping together civs and giving them a name.

    Posted: 13 Oct 2021 02:29 AM PDT

    https://gowerc.github.io/aoecps/outputs/index.html

    is a website with all the data and civ win rates.

    Its has a feature called: Hierarchical Clustering Dendrogram

    Which attempts to highlight civilisations that are "similar" based upon their win rates vs other civilisations. The algorithm works by recursively grouping civilisations (or groups of civilisations) that are the most similar to each other until there is only 1 group. The lower down on the y-axis that civilisations are grouped indicates a higher degree of similarity whilst civilisations that are grouped higher up on the y-axis indicates a lower degree of similarity. That is to say that if two civilisations are linked together low down on the y-axis it means that they tend to win and lose against the same civiliations.

    https://imgur.com/a/QFNntQE

    This graph is for open maps ie arabia, 1200+elo.

    I think some groups like berbers, lithuanians, franks and teutons as strong cav civs are easy.

    Japanese Ethiopians and vikings all have good archer and some eco boost.

    Tatars chinese and Saracens are the camel civs that really like archers.

    But I have no idea what bohemians and vietnamese and italians have similar?

    Good archers?

    Khmer and slavs have good farms?

    What kind of groupings make sense for you and which dont?

    submitted by /u/Muted-Building
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    Poll: Which Militia-line is viable in late game?

    Posted: 13 Oct 2021 01:21 AM PDT

    Poll: Which Militia-line is viable in late game?

    Hi all! Most of us know the uses for our Champions (or 2-Handed Swordsmen) in late game: Countering Eagles, countering trash, countering Goths, countering a pike/halb + siege push and doing a not-so-common but many times effective Champion (+halb) + Siege push. Every of these uses can be boosted by many bonuses and techs regarding the Militia-line (more attack from Aztecs and Burmese, faster attack from Japanese, more HP and bonus attack against Cavalry from Vikings, more melee armor from Teutons and Bulgarians, more pierce armor from Malians, lower cost and endless spam from Goths, trample damage from Slavs, conversion into a trash unit from Malay, faster movement from Celts), but we all agree that, for all the uses aforementioned, a generic FU Champion would do the trick.

    My question is: Are Champions (or 2HS) from civs that miss one or many key techs still viable to do that job? Let's do a small list, considering that Goths (who miss Plate Mail Armor and Supplies), Bulgarians and Malay (who miss Champions), Celts (who miss Squires) and Malians (who miss Blast Furnace) get bonuses or techs that make up for the fact of missing them. I have ordered them from the least "lackluster" to the most "lackluster" from my point of view:

    ​

    https://preview.redd.it/apodo3hpf6t71.png?width=706&format=png&auto=webp&s=6d9d07d04984ee179bfa0bf8ded74333bd71da9f

    To me, lacking Blast Furnace is less important than to miss Squires, because Champions' biggest disadvantage comes with their low speed. Without Blast Furnace, you hit less hard, but without Squires you can't even chase Skirmishers. The difference of speed with Halberdiers also becomes higher, although, when facing a Halb/Siege push, Siege units are the ones that slow the push. Knowing that you also want to counter Eagles with them, lacking speed will be worse than dealing 2 less damage. Then, I feel that getting to 5 pierce armor is more important than getting the Champion (+10HP +1 attack) itself, especially with the latest buff to LS and 2HS. Lacking Supplies hurts A LOT if you want to spam Champions/2HS, because of the 15 extra food you have to pay for each unit (especially now that Supplies has become cheaper). In this regard, I should mention that Chinese, even lacking Supplies, would save 559F and 240G if they researched all techs and upgrades in Imperial Age.

    The ones I feel can't be viable are the bottom 6. Tatars are underwhelming with only 2 melee and pierce armor. Huns and Khmer are also weak and Persians don't even get the 2-Handed Swordsman upgrade. Lithuanians do get Champions, but lack attack, discount and armor. Finally, Mayans have no discount and no Champions, which we know is not enough to stop the Goth flood, and Eagles/Halbs are their preferred infantry units. The limit to me is somewhere up in the list. So I ask you for your opinion: Which Champion/2HS is still viable to do their job? Thanks for voting and commenting!!!

    View Poll

    submitted by /u/Azot-Spike
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    SotL on whether Poles and Bohemians OP.

    Posted: 12 Oct 2021 03:14 PM PDT

    Matches by map and patch

    Posted: 13 Oct 2021 07:15 AM PDT

    Heidelberg Castle

    Posted: 12 Oct 2021 01:28 PM PDT

    Please don't give up !

    Posted: 13 Oct 2021 06:37 AM PDT

    If 3 people read this from my elo (800-1000) it's worth it

    The game is based upon 'having a fire under your ass' it's relatively low in low elos meaning u have time to react and make a counter plan even when your 2 barracks are down and archery range being destroyed

    Send vills to a flank and make the buildings

    Don't use town bells but only garrison nearest workers as this will allow the rest to keep going

    Seriously I think it will be the benefit for all of us if we learn to cope with the fire under our asses just a little bit longer, playing from behind against an advantageous opponent makes you learn the best.

    Transformations (ie. from 3 scout rush to maybe siege units and say... infantry) are a big part I've learned, that is why we should get in to the mindset of constantly adapting and switching the tactic

    When you're executing phase 1 - prepare for phase 2 while doing the first

    But really I just wanted to make this post to encourage people to play a bit longer, even when behind because if you learn to stall an advance, build in flanks, distract the enemy by giving bait units... really imagination is the limit. It's the salt of the game, like Creco-Roman wrestling, u don't give up because the other guy has 3 points and u have 2 and hes on the advance. U twitch and turn and fight back, try to invent a strategy out of the situation and not repeat what YOU'RE DOING CURRENTLY. We will all win like this !

    submitted by /u/herperslaepi
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    AoE2 patriotism

    Posted: 13 Oct 2021 01:10 AM PDT

    Just out of curiosity, do you guys feel some kind of patriotic attachment to your country's civ? Even if it's just a joke with your friends?

    Personnally, no matter how hard I try, I will always think of Franks as this tryhard civ I didn't want to try my scouts - kts build with because everyone plays them

    But then again, I'm not very patriotic so maybe that's just me

    View Poll

    submitted by /u/Fflow27
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    Japanese Strategies, Compositions, and Build Order for 900 ELO?

    Posted: 13 Oct 2021 08:12 AM PDT

    Japanese is a flexible civ that has full upgraded Arbs, FU CA, FU Champs, Bloodlines, FU castle age knights. Their eco buildings cost 50 wood rather than the 100 of a generic civ. Their infantry attack faster.

    When playing them they feel like a Generic civ. The attacking bonus for infantry is hard to get value from except your Halbs handle Knights a little better if they can catch them. (How can I use Halbs more effectively in defense)

    Are there any build orders, strategies, and compositions that make Japanese feel less like a generic civ? Ones that can be done at 900 ELO?

    I'm aware of Hera's 20 pop M@A rush but that's a little tight for 900 ELO.

    Any suggestions and tips for different phases of the game when playing Japanese on open land maps would be appreciated.

    submitted by /u/1mdelightful
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    As I understand Cumans

    Posted: 13 Oct 2021 07:49 AM PDT

    Anyone else not getting achievements? (steam)

    Posted: 13 Oct 2021 07:38 AM PDT

    I won with Polish and Burmese yesterday in ranked and didn't get either "Victory" achievement. Just curious if others have this bug

    submitted by /u/OutlaW32
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    Are ranked games more stressful than tournament games?

    Posted: 13 Oct 2021 07:20 AM PDT

    Hey all,

    I've played around 150 ranked games and participated in 3 tournaments. I'm around 1100 ELO. I also play regularly against friends.

    For whatever reason, I find the ranked games super draining compared to the others.

    Does anyone else find this? Maybe it's just the unpredictability of playing against a randomer, I'm not sure.

    For tournaments, I find them less stressful, possibly because I have lower expectations but also because I can prep specific strats for the maps. When I do ranked, it's almost always arabia.

    submitted by /u/Disastrous_Gap_4711
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    Flemish Revolution rework concept. It is far from perfect but think the concept would be more preferred than the current version of the unique technology.

    Posted: 13 Oct 2021 06:34 AM PDT

    This 5 minute video took 14 hours to make - measurable consequences of TC and villager idle time showcased in both a low elo game and in a high elo game!

    Posted: 12 Oct 2021 10:41 AM PDT

    Game crashes and results in timeout

    Posted: 12 Oct 2021 10:36 PM PDT

    I never really got deep into why it sometimes randomly crashes or causes a BSOD at times but it happened for the second time in two days and now I'm on an 8 minute timeout. I'm scared I might get banned at this rate.

    submitted by /u/IamGenghisKhan
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    Most/least used Unique Units?

    Posted: 12 Oct 2021 08:35 PM PDT

    Haven't played AOE2 in over 10 years and recently started watching streams. Definitive Edition sure looks amazing!

    Back when I played, plumed archer and huscarl spam was a big thing. I also never figured out how to use Tarkans. I know there are a ton of new civs which I'm mostly unfamiliar with, but which civs utilize UU a lot and which completely ignore them?

    submitted by /u/Massive_Type5773
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