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    Home Unlabelled Age of Empires II Civilization Match-up Discussion Round 11 Week 4: Bulgarians vs Goths

    Age of Empires II Civilization Match-up Discussion Round 11 Week 4: Bulgarians vs Goths

    February 03, 2021

    Age of Empires II Civilization Match-up Discussion Round 11 Week 4: Bulgarians vs Goths

    Civilization Match-up Discussion Round 11 Week 4: Bulgarians vs Goths

    Posted: 02 Feb 2021 09:44 PM PST

    "So which Roman Empire did you fight?"

    ​

    Hello and welcome back for another Age of Empires 2 civilization match up discussion! This is a series where we discuss the various advantages, disadvantages, and quirks found within the numerous match ups of the game. The goal is to collectively gain a deeper understanding of how two civilizations interact with each other in a variety of different settings. Feel free to ask questions, pose strategies, or provide insight on how the two civilizations in question interact with each other on any map type and game mode. This is not limited to 1v1 either. Feel free to discuss how the civilizations compare in team games as well! So long as you are talking about how the two civilizations interact, anything is fair game! Last week we discussed the Ethiopians vs Malians, and next up is the Bulgarians vs Goths!

    ​

    Bulgarians: Infantry and Cavalry civ

    • Militia-line upgrades free
    • TCs costs -50% stone
    • Blacksmith and Siege Workshop upgrades cost -50% food
    • Can build Kreposts
    • TEAM BONUS: Blacksmiths research +80% faster
    • Unique Unit: Konnik (Heavy cavalry that becomes an infantry when felled)
    • Unique Building: Krepost (Cheaper, smaller, weaker Castles that can only train Konniks)
    • Castle Age Unique Tech: Stirrups (Cavalry attack +33% faster)
    • Imperial Age Unique Tech: Bagains (Militia-line gain +5/+0 armor)

    ​

    Goths: Infantry civilization

    • Infantry cost -20/25/30/35% per Age
    • Infantry +1/2/3 attack vs buildings in Feudal/Castle/Imperial Age
    • Villagers +5 attack vs wild boar; hunters carry +15 meat
    • Loom can be researched instantly
    • +10 maximum population in Imperial Age
    • TEAM BONUS: Barracks work +20% faster
    • Unique Unit: Huskarl (High pierce armor infantry with attack bonus vs archers)
    • Castle Age Unique Tech: Anarchy (Can create Huskarls at Barracks)
    • Imperial Age Unique Tech: Perfusion (Barracks work +100% faster)

    ​

    Below are some match up-specific talking points to get you all started. These are just to give people ideas, you do not need to address them specifically if you do not want to!

    • Alrighty everybody - time to recall our minds from complaining about First Crusade and Coustilliers ;). So for these civs on 1v1 Arabia, Goths are usually fairly lowly rated by higher-level players, however they always have the potential to run you over in the early game with laming, and in the late game with Goths.exe. Bulgarians used to be thought of rather poorly as well, but after some buffs a little while back, people seem to be experimenting around with them a bit more. Missing Xbow is normally a huge deal... but less so vs Goths. Bagains might be very useful here too. What do you guys think?
    • Okay since they are in the map pool now, on *really* aggressive maps like Atacama and Seize the Hump Mountain, both of these civs are very strong. They both possess excellent early Feudal Age M@A play, and then have some strong options from there. Which civ do you think has the edge in those early Feudal Age infantry fights, and which civ has the better transition to midgame?

    Thanks as always for participating! Next week we will continue our discussions with the Indians vs Koreans. Hope to see you there! :)

    Previous discussions: Part 1 Part 2 Part 3

    submitted by /u/OrnLu528
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    How is life going fellas?

    Posted: 03 Feb 2021 04:26 AM PST

    We did it! AoE2 is on the Liquipedia main list

    Posted: 02 Feb 2021 04:54 PM PST

    Pro Player Tournament Earnings since Definitive Edition came out (Major Tourneys only)

    Posted: 02 Feb 2021 09:51 PM PST

    Do you like the idea of cube trees, but not the implementation? How about topiaries!

    Posted: 03 Feb 2021 06:42 AM PST

    Do you like the idea of cube trees, but not the implementation? How about topiaries!

    While small trees works most of the time, there are some weird trees that are still hard to see properly. Cube mod fixes that, but its just a bit TOO ugly for me, so I figured I'd photoshop up a less fugly cube and learn how to shove it into the game.

    Let me know what you think! If there's significant interest I can look into snow and biome variants.

    This is only going to work with standard graphics for now.

    https://preview.redd.it/aw6uu7gmx9f61.png?width=1019&format=png&auto=webp&s=d97f461481906d112902ccf418e52aacad972fce

    Mod Portal: https://www.ageofempires.com/mods/details/20805/

    Or search in-game: Topiary Trees

    Gallery: https://imgur.com/a/wuwAzZk

    submitted by /u/hungarian_notation
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    Why do they even have paladins?

    Posted: 03 Feb 2021 07:34 AM PST

    I always forget one villager

    Posted: 03 Feb 2021 07:50 AM PST

    And gives your elephants +3 attack.

    Posted: 02 Feb 2021 06:42 PM PST

    One huge comeback against very hard AI

    Posted: 03 Feb 2021 05:55 AM PST

    On Sicilians: How do you feel about Serjeants being able to construct and repair Donjons?

    Posted: 03 Feb 2021 07:39 AM PST

    Sicilians are a guilty pleasure of mine: on one hand I think First Crusade is stupidly, unforgivably broken and needs to be patched. On the other hand, I look at the Sicilian design and feel like the devs had a meeting and said "Let's seduce AFlyingNun specifically and make a civ he'd like."

    Like I cannot understate how it feels like someone read my mind and just made a damned civ concept I love. I like infantry, I like reliable infantry that doesn't explode to archers, I like forward bases, I like wood bonuses, I like ridiculous accents on my villagers, and I like units with silly hats, so Serjeants be like "lol I'm a duck knight."

    But my feelings on the matter are moot and the important thing is one crucial question:

    Do you feel Serjeants being able to construct and repair Donjons is OP?

    So hear me out on this:

    You're being pressured by Ethiopians or some other archer civ that just gets all hot and bothered the moment they see a bow. Yknow the kind: the ones that see their enemy made 15 skirms and say "well obviously the correct response is EVEN MORE ARCHERS" and do nothing but.

    You drop down a Donjon because your civ loves Donjons and now their push is delayed as they look for an angle where they can continue harassing your eco.

    In the meantime you send one lonely Serjeant to their base, build a Donjon on that thing and then start popping out Serjeants, knowing full well that Serjeants have much better avenues of approach (aka tearing down obstacles like walls and TCs) than archers do and that if this continues, your pressure > his pressure and he'll be forced to come back and defend.

    If he tries to respond by producing knights or the like and pressuring your Donjon, you can legit hop in the damned thing, heal up, then hop out with more Serjeants you've made to kill him OR repeatedly hop in and out whilst repairing. Even IF he pays attention, you're demanding a lot of his attention for this that's distracting from his forward push and leaving his must-be-micro'ed archers vulnerable. The moment he loses his knights, you repair the damned thing. And not only that, since you have survivors, they can build new Donjons, except now in better positions that directly harass his eco.

    Or let's say you're facing Goths and your forward Donjon is being pressured by his infantry. However, you have Serjeants, which are generally stronger. Even in the circumstances where they aren't, the almighty Donjon will heal you with it's loving walls, so you can get maximum value out of your units. Hell, you can afford to let one fall and go to another. Again, it seems more taxing on infantry or cavalry civs because even if the units they produce are a threat to you, you have a "zone of control" to retreat to and heal in with your units that already trade pretty cost-effectively.

    Having units that can repair cannot be understated. Let's imagine a Goth player sends 10 Infantry at my Donjon with 10 Serjeants in or around it. Before the fight begins, he's taken some arrow fire. If somehow I'm taking a bad fight, I hop in the tower and heal. If he's close to killing the tower, I hop out and repair. If he notices, I eject everyone and fight with 9 whilst repairing with 1. I do not care if the repair guy dies and infact I can replace one Serjeant faster than the Goth player can replace his units. (for that specific fight) I have extra options to be obnoxious here and divide his attention that other civs simply don't have. Other civs, at the very least, the damage to the tower is "permanent" or they can dive on any forward vils that are repairing and building.

    I feel most people would cite the Serjeant's additional gold cost or the Donjon's extra stone cost as what balances things out. The thing is:

    1) Gold cost only starts becoming an issue by Castle. For Feudal, the extra gold is practically moot. Hell even beyond that, the Serjeant is still cheaper than archers and knights, meaning your only competition on cost is Infantry, which you can outmass/overwhelm pretty quickly thanks to your defensive holds.

    2) The extra stone cost would matter, but I feel like the Sicilian eco can afford to put vils on stone. Hell, First Crusade actively encourages you to because the sheer resource value of the units it awards makes it 100% cost-effective to be on stone. Not only that, their incredible farming eco means you need much, MUCH less wood than other civs. This bonus even outshines the Teutons, with the Teutons only having the upperhand with placing those very first farms in Feudal.

    All of this means lol I don't give a damn that my towers cost 200 stone, I can afford it. Sicilians also aren't a civ that needs a castle, so you don't worry about overcommitting to Donjons.

    In short, I don't think the additional cost does JACK to balance these. Like of course it can, but I would 100% argue the situations where the additional cost matters are at a minimum.

    But aren't Donjons just a convenience? You can Barracks + Tower rush with any other civ.

    This is kinda my question too, in a way. I'm unsure how much of a convenience it is and how much of it is just stupid strong for the Sicilians.

    One thing is clear though: Sicilians save buttloads on wood. A Sicilian can make a forward base for 75 wood and 200 stone. Any other civ would spend 225 wood and 125 stone. One of these is clearly more expensive. There is nothing stopping you from committing more vils to stone, we're just not used to doing so because usually it harms your eco. (very questionable with Sicilians as long as First Crusade exists) The moment you have vils on stone, the Sicilians can clearly gather and pay for the cost of their forward bases much faster than opposing civs can.

    So as any other civ, my immediate problem with trying to mirror the Sicilians is I'm harming my wood eco in a much more direct and apparent way. I have to forego my blacksmith for a time or I have to delay my farm eco a bit longer. Sicilians though...? I feel like the first Donjon suffices long enough that you don't need to put loads of vils on stone, your boss farms means you don't need as many vils on wood anyways, and the nature of EVERY Serjeant being able to build a new Donjon means you can afford to put the initial Donjon in a much more conservative, safer position that's harder for enemy villagers to rush down; you do not worry about your forward vils being picked off at all, you just need that first Donjon to stand long enough that you have Serjeants that can defend themselves....which isn't hard given they can beat every damned Feudal unit + retreat to the Donjon for heals.

    If I try to copy the Sicilian strat, I run into the following problems:

    1) My wood eco goes OOF for a bit until it recovers

    2) I MUST keep my forward villagers alive or my forward push is either GG or in danger

    3) My forward villagers are lost resources simply cause they aren't gathering; it's difficult to say Sicilians are nuking their eco by putting 1-2 on stone if other civs would put those vils on tower duty, where they gather 0 resources.

    4) Serjeants naturally give off more pressure because every Serjeant you allow to walk in your base is a potential tower rush; Man at Arms or any other military unit of your choosing can neither build new towers, nor are they able to repair towers they retreat to, meaning any attempt to copy the Serjeant's playing "peekaboo" with a Donjon won't last long if the tower is focused.

    So is this balanced? Is it a mere convenience or a drastic jump in power? If OP, how do we resolve it? Should Serjeants lose the ability to repair, for example...?

    Love to hear people's thoughts on this. I feel like the conveniences for a rush are just that: nice conveniences the civ has. Being able to repair with military units however is the one where I hesitate and wonder if it's okay as-is.

    submitted by /u/AFlyingNun
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    Coustellier attack vs archer units

    Posted: 03 Feb 2021 06:07 AM PST

    Hi guys!

    Do you know if devs have addressed the insane bonus attack of this UU against archer units in the recent hotfix or this is still an issue?

    Cheers!

    submitted by /u/martinezaoe
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    St4rk highlights the most insane and hilarious plays in the recent Suomi vs WWP showmatches - brilliant watch!!

    Posted: 02 Feb 2021 11:31 PM PST

    Check this out! My brother got me this original tech tree poster for Christmas!

    Posted: 03 Feb 2021 08:10 AM PST

    New DLC is a testing ground for AOE 4 ideas

    Posted: 03 Feb 2021 12:29 AM PST

    Consider it a conspiracy theory but this is how I look at the new DLC.

    As far as I remember, after the last DSL Cysion said there will be no new DLCs coming. But, there we have it, when we least expected a DLC. The new mechanics feel very unlike AOE2. TheViper has also repeated said on his stream that Charge Attack and spontaneous spawning of large army unit using using Flemish Revolution and First Crusade are not AOE from his point of view.

    I believe Relic must be experimenting with lots of ideas for AOE 4, some of them might be quite radical. However, sometimes, some radical ideas are not well accepted by the community, like shipments in AOE 3. Hence, the theory that one of the major purposes of releasing this DLC could possibly be to test community response to some radical changes/ideas.

    What do you guys/gals say?

    submitted by /u/mysterymanOO7
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    Mod that shows edge of the map

    Posted: 03 Feb 2021 01:38 AM PST

    Hi everybody!

    I often have the problem while scouting that I don't recognize the edge of the map because everything is pitch black (undiscovered map and outside the map).

    Is there a mod that highlights the edge of the map?

    Thank you!

    submitted by /u/oldmajorpig
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    How many farms do I need in castle age for different strats?

    Posted: 03 Feb 2021 07:45 AM PST

    Let's say I'm on 3 TC. I need 6 vills on farm for constant vill production from 1 TC so that's 18. Let's say I'm in archer production so no need there except for upgrades.

    Now I want to go to imperial - how do you decide when/ how many farms to build when you want to go for imperial age?

    Repeat this except maybe I'm playing knights in castle.

    I realize it's a complex issue but I'm looking for good heuristics to help manage my economic prioritization

    Thank you!

    submitted by /u/blitzmacht
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    Sicilian scouts and light cav a little OP?

    Posted: 03 Feb 2021 01:23 AM PST

    I've noticed that alot of the focus has been on sergeants and donjons worth the Sicilians.

    But what about the following?

    So with the Sicilian land units taken 50% less bonus damage.... Doesn't this make their scouts and light cav a little bit awesome?

    Check out these videos I did to test them out.

    https://youtu.be/6rDGQisQQ60

    https://youtu.be/z3qaf3l5dY4

    What do you guys think?

    submitted by /u/Aoeleagues
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    i spent 45 minutes looking for this guy.. bug in campaign

    Posted: 03 Feb 2021 08:29 AM PST

    The unluckiest map gen I've ever had

    Posted: 03 Feb 2021 08:19 AM PST

    Does anyone know what happened to https://aoe2calc.org ?

    Posted: 03 Feb 2021 08:14 AM PST

    I used to use this site constantly to calculate how many vils in which resources were needed to permanent create any type of untis but it seems to be offline for a couple weeks now. Not sure if it's just me or something happened to the site....

    Do you know of other sites that are similar? https://aoe2calc.org/#/calc

    submitted by /u/Dekarmaldini
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    Hotkeys Tips and Advice for Ultimate Noobs

    Posted: 03 Feb 2021 07:45 AM PST

    Is there any Interactive Build Order or Custom map for training hotkeys (other than Cicero's for BO)? Specially to prevent Idle TC, or any videos that showcase this feature. The ones I've seen are pretty good but focus more on how to set them up and this tips are for my friend that is a beginner and would get overwhelm surely to see all the hotkeys setups.

    My friend is very casual, and doesn't seem to like or enjoy looking at videos to improve, such as BO's and so. He has mentioned that he enjoys just to go with the flow, as you can imagine this doesn't work too well.

    Yesterday we had a 1:45 hr 2v2 game were my friend wasn't in Imp after minute 1:20, asked him "why" and he said he didn't have gold. At this point I was 200 pop and had many resources to spare so I sent him more than enough to go to Imp, and I just kept slinging him all my spare resources.

    We finally won the game and I was shocked that his max vils were 43. I just straight told him, that I needed him to improve his vil production if he wanted to win more games (no surprise we lose a lot) and he was finally open to receive advice, so here I am, asking for advice to you too.

    I already shared him this two videos which I think could help him the most.
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Fe7UYIrfL8o&ab_channel=HappyToGame
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BAFOb-cY9YA&ab_channel=GregStein-Ageofempires2

    Just let me know if you have any other good materials. Thank you very much!

    submitted by /u/Dekarmaldini
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    Spanish version of Burgundians' bonuses not updated correctly

    Posted: 02 Feb 2021 12:41 PM PST

    Haven’t won a game online yet

    Posted: 02 Feb 2021 06:38 PM PST

    People keep rushing me in feudal with massive infantry armies spamming 11. A little salty. How can someone with very little skill handle these rushes better? Is it simply towering each resource and having a defensive army? Feels like that would hurt my economy so much

    submitted by /u/mikeyxxslattery
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    Caravels = Gunpowder Ship

    Posted: 02 Feb 2021 10:34 PM PST

    What if Caravels fires bullets like a hand cannoneer, or multiple shots like a Organ Gun, instead of a scorpion-like bolt?

    I know one of the heroes Vasco de Gama behaves such, but since Portuguese specializes in gunpowder and navy, shouldn't the Caravels have such an attack?

    submitted by /u/hussar269c
    [link] [comments]
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